We’ve had an interesting post over on the Gatineau discussion forum from Dan Regalia. In his post, Dan asks why we’ve chosen to provide Gatineau as a hosted-only service, with no API or connections to Microsoft’s (or anyone else’s) CRM platform, and no ability to run locally. I started writing a response to Dan’s post on the Gatineau forum, but given the slightly wider readership of this blog, and the broader questions that Dan raises, I thought I’d put those answers here. Dan, if you’re reading this, I hope you don’t mind that I’ve answered your question in this way. If you have further questions, you’re more than welcome to contact me directly.
You can read Dan’s full question here. But here’s a slightly shortened version (for those of you unfamiliar with DeepMetrix, the company we acquired to build Gatineau, LiveStats is their previous product line – see www.deepmetrix.com for more information):
I guess what I’m saying is that while the current version of Gatineau, as it stands, will be no better than what’s currently available for free from Google, we will not have any access points for system integration, and we will not own our data. While this may be good for a personal website, or a small business, this is not something that I would not recommend for a corporate solution. Google at least has Urchin, which is available to host on your own servers, but integration with that system may prove to be too large of project that we want to tackle.
I would expect though, from Microsoft Corp (not the Live franchise) is to have something available for us (corporate developers and system integrators) to tinker with and build internal systems with, with our own bells and whistles. I am hoping that this may be something that is part of Gatineau in the near future, if not the final release. I wouldn’t mind purchasing a ‘Corporate Edition’ vs. a private or small biz edition if one were available with features that were addressed above (hint hint hint)
The Question I pose to the forum is this: What did you expect to see with Gatineau, and what did you want to do with it?
There are several interesting questions here. I’ll try to pull them out and answer them below.
1. Why is there no installable version of Gatineau?
The best way to answer this question is to look at some of the reasons why we are introducing Gatineau, and some of the qualities of the service. Gatineau is intended to be a complement to and extension of the services we provide in our adCenter platform. For those of you who are not familiar with it, adCenter is our self-service advertising platform that allows advertisers to buy paid search and contextual ads on Microsoft’s network (live.com and the MSN network).
Our advertiser customers have told us that they would like to see better analysis of the effectiveness of their advertising expenditure. We also feel that adding a useful and well-integrated analytics package to our self-serve advertising platform, we’ll make that platform more attractive to advertisers. And finally, given that it is known that web analytics helps marketers to spend their online budgets more effectively, we’re hopeful that the analytics capabilities in adCenter will lead to a little more money being spent in adCenter.
To achieve these goals, Gatineau needs to be tightly integrated into adCenter. And because adCenter is a hosted service, Gatineau needs to be a hosted service. Plus, there are a number of key areas of functionality (in particular, the demographic segmentation capability) which can only be delivered via a hosted service.
Now, we could (as Google has done) introduce a separate version of Gatineau which is installable, and perhaps charge for it. Doing so would certainly offer our existing LiveStats customers a smoother transition to a new product. Indeed, it’s something we thought long and hard about doing. I can’t say that this is something we’ll never do, but for the time being (and the foreseeable future) we have taken the decision not to provide the software in this way because we feel our engineering and support resources will be more efficiently allocated against a single product. I know from my experience running engineering and support for WebAbacus that supporting an installed product is no trivial matter – and Joel Spolsky agrees with me, so there.
To address the other part of Dan’s question here, we don’t feel that just because we are offering Gatineau as a hosted-only service that it therefore is exactly the same as Google Analytics. After all, Omniture and Webtrends’ primary offerings are also hosted services, and they compete very robustly with Google’s product. We feel that the demographic data in Gatineau is a significant differentiator, as well as its custom taxonomy capabilties – and those are just beta 1 features. From beta 2 onwards, we’ll be seeing the advanced visualizations that I’ve trailed previously, as well as integration of paid search bid data from the three major search engines. So we’re confident that Gatineau’s not just another “me, too” product.
2. Why no integration?
Another aspect of Dan’s post questions whether there will be any integration hooks in Gatineau to connect it to CRM, CMS and identity systems, and the like. It is one of the slight downsides of offering a hosted web analytics service that offering integration into customers’ own systems becomes more challenging – not solely from a technical point of view, but more from a data ownership perspective.
At the moment, the only information I can share in this area is that Gatineau V1 won’t contain any hooks or APIs to integrate external systems; but this is certainly something we’re looking at. In these deliberations we need to make some key decisions about which integration points would be most valuable for our customers and partners.
Would it be most useful to offer a souped-up/automated data export feature so that other providers of services can integrate Gatineau data into, for example, CRM systems? Or would it be more useful to provide an interface UI so that other companies can “re-skin” Gatineau and offer it as part of their own suite of online services? Or on the third hand, should Gatineau be able to import data from other systems, keyed against some provided user identifier? If you have thoughts, my comments box is only a click away (well, probably a click, a scroll, a bit more clicking, tabbing and typing, and then a final click, but you get the idea).
3. What’s the vision for Gatineau?
As I mentioned above, Gatineau is a key extension to our advertising platform value proposition. Even before our acquisition of aQuantive, this was a 10-figure business for us. Not only are we now in the business of selling advertising space on our own properties, such as MSN and Hotmail; we als
o represent (i.e. resell) a huge amount of ad inventory from third parties, ranging from Facebook through to Digg, CNBC, and the publishers who participate in our DRIVEpm ad network.
To compete effectively in this business, you have to offer advertisers great tools and data to help them make smart advertising decisions which will give them the best return on investment; and you have to offer intelligence and tools to publishers to make it easy for them to maximize the value they get from their inventory.
Analytics is central to this story. For advertisers, it delivers the insights about who the audience is, and how they’re behaving after they click, helping those advertisers to make better media buying decisions, and optimize their site for conversions. For publishers, analytics provides the insight into content usage across the audience base which enables the publisher to sell that content (or advertising within it) at the best price.
What this means for Gatineau and our analytics efforts going forward is that you can expect to see Analytics capability very tightly integrated with our advertising tools, for both advertisers and publishers. I can’t comment on the exact form this integration will take, or the timing on specific aspects, but if you’re trying to understand the direction Gatineau will take in the future, you can be sure that it will continue to serve these two audiences as a priority. After all, they’re the ones paying the bills.
9 thoughts on “Why can’t you install Gatineau? (And other questions)”
Gatineau AdCenter Connection
Now I know why Gatineau will never overtake Google Analytics, or in fact, any other analytics platform…..its not intended to according to a post titled – Why cant you install Gatineau? (And other questions), in Lies, Damn Lies.It seems to…
Well, good bye Gatineau/LiveSTATS and Microsoft/Deepmetrix then.
You are killing a great INSTALLABLE application and handing the market/users over to the competition. Unbelievable!
LiveSTATS was a great application based on .NET Framework and SQL Server. You are leaving us abandoned and I guess you want us to go to alterative platforms.
It’s been a great time until Microsoft bought Deepmetrix…
Big mistake. Here’s why:
1) Google analytics – Free/Gatineau – must pay initiation fee PER DOMAIN
2) Google analytics – does not analyze log files/Gatineau – no longer analyzes log files – no differentiator
3) Google Analytics – installs and works/Gatineau – broken, successful install has yet to occur in my beta
4) Google analytics – requires client-side code/Gatineau – requires client-side code/Livestats.XSP – no client side code required
5) Livestats allows an ISP to offer resold or free stats services without paying on a per-domain basis, and centrally managed. Neither of the other products do this, though Google Analytics comes closer.
6) Livestats allows custom reporting, with user configurable triggers, events, and other capabilities that would be difficult or impossible to offer in Gatineau (Wouldn’t know if you have because I still can’t get the thing to work)
Basically you have NO differentiators, other than the tenuous at best locational data – and how long do you think it will take for Google to mash THAT up with googleMaps – whereas livestats had tons of differentiators that made it a great and valuable product.
Let’s face it – Deepmetrix sold their soul to Microsoft for a boatload of cash and left their customers in a lurch doing it. They replaced a great product with a crappy one, provided no transitional support or discounts, provided no ongoing product lifetime. Hey wait a minute that reminds me of another company I know of – MICROSOFT! Have a chat with all the people that bought the first round of commerce server only to find there was no way to port to the new version without rewriting everything.
The above “explanations” are “justifications” for taking the money and running – not for abandoning a good product to get rich.
Did they sell their soul, or get out at the right time? With Google and (inevitably) Microsoft offering competitive services for free, what’s DeepMetrix left with – web log analysis for the xSP market? Selling low-cost analytics for free-sale to people with personal sites?
The log analyzer model worked well for xSPs for a long time, but that time has passed. And why would Microsoft want anything to do with this market?
As nature takes it course on install vs hosted some turmoil is expected (and this is happening in every industry vertical).
There are benefits from having software/installed solutions (control, a smidgen more privacy, cost come to mind) but there are likewise benefits from hosted solutions (speed of development/updates, transitioning of major IT headaches to someone smarter, being able to focus on using applications / data come to mind).
There is certainly a near term drive to hosted apps becuase of their obvious benefits. The future I think holds the promise of hybrids (hence my adoration of Adobe Air) / run anywhere (web or desktop) apps.
What is clear is that in many industries status quo is dead (if not the past). We have to make tough choices else we have to choose to get off the train.
Comparing MSG to GA is unfair. MSG already looks like a good product and it is only getting better. I for one can’t wait to install it and try it.
It is my fondest wish to have a robust competitive market for web analytics, that will bring benefits to all of us.
And it will, in the near long term, lead to benefits to both “Unhappy with Microsoft” and “Disappointed Jack”. 🙂
Nice post Ian.
“And it will, in the near long term, lead to benefits to both “Unhappy with Microsoft” and “Disappointed Jack”.”
Sorry Avinash, but you are totally wrong.
We want to host an analytics application for our customers. We want to keep using LiveSTATS, but it needs an update that will never be released.
We do not want to use an online service. If we wanted to there are many alternatives.
Unfortunately Microsoft decided to not care about the customers of Deepmetrix.
What if Microsoft had decided to kill Virtual PC and only develop with Virtual Server or Hyper-V when they bought that product. This is the same.
I also look forward to Gatineau as an alternative, but it’s primary the installable version we need.
Unfortunately LiveSTATS still has some issues that will never be fixed because of Microsoft.
Microsoft could at least release updated browser definitions and bug fixes. IE7 and other recent browsers are not identified if you don’t manually hack a file that is not easy to understand.
Thanks for your comments, folks. Jack, you raise valid concerns which it’s useful to hear; I shall feed them back to our teams here.
Lee (aka “Unhappy with Microsoft”), you also raise valid points, but you have a couple of inaccuracies:
1. You only have to pay the $5 sign-up fee for adCenter once, and you can then track unlimited domains in the same account. I’ve explained before that we know that the $5 fee (which is purely temporary) is not a good thing, and we’re working as hard as we can to eliminate it.
2. It’s not location data that is our differentiator, it’s demographic (age/gender) data. To reproduce this in another tool, you need this data for a statistically significant portion of your user base – something that even Google will find hard to replicate. And something you can only really do with a hosted system.
I’m sorry that you’re having trouble getting Gatineau up and running – precisely what problem are you running into? Part of the purpose of the beta is to identify these kind of problems, so if you haven’t used the Gatineau support form (accessible via the product) to provide feedback about your problem and get a resolution, please do so.
Since there appears to be no future for an installable version, maybe Microsoft can put the LiveSTATS.XSP source on CodePlex and let the community update the bugs and definitions.
Hi Ian, I posted a review about Gatineau and I thought it could be interesting for you. Take a look at it at http://www.analytics20.org/tools/microsoft-gatineu-review-first-part/.
I would love to receive your opinion about it. Juan
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